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Future Network - emerging challenges with solar

about 2 years ago
CLOSED: This discussion has concluded.

The Jones family, featured in the Future Networks film below, want to increasingly take control of how and when they use energy, and where they get it from. They are considering rooftop solar.


If the Jones’ invest in solar, we would typically expect them to save around $500 each year by reducing the amount of energy they need to buy from their retailer. They could also earn between $200 - $500 from energy they sell to their retailer depending on the current feed-in tariff offers.  We call this energy ‘exports’. All up, they may save between $700 and $1,000 on their bill.

The near future may see 50% of houses in SA being powered by rooftop solar, or other non-traditional electricity generation sources. Rooftop solar isn’t controllable like large power stations, and if exports get too high it can put the overall reliability of the power system at risk. 

We are considering ways to deal with this emerging issue of the network reaching its limit to support more solar exports, and have posted 3 possible solutions below. 

  1. Not allow exports from new installations. This means new solar customers will not be able to earn money from exports. This will be cost neutral to all customers. 
  2. Make network investments (for example, network upgrades, interconnectors and storage) to enable customers to continue to export energy as they currently do. This may increase costs to all customers by several hundred dollars per year.
  3. Require new solar installations to have some level of monitoring and control. This may increase up-front costs to new solar customers by a few hundred dollars, and may reduce their ability to earn money from exports by a small amount.
What do you see as being the best solution to this issue? And why?
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Consultation has concluded

  • Richard W OTH about 2 years ago
    I hope you have seen the article on this on Renew Economy websiteIt sums up the problems and the opportunities as rooftop solar grows.Overall there is a huge opportunity - and one that can lessen the load on the network if done right.So I was very pleased to see that the broader questions and possible solutions are being raised. With the need for electric vehicles (we HAVE to de-carbonise) and other things there should be plenty of need and room for more rooftop solar.You are right to be concerned but we need to encourage this investment into share and distributed power generation. Here is the link:http://reneweconomy.com.au/rooftop-solar-australias-greatest-opportunity-greatest-risk-86420/?utm_source=RE+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=e9d16a0b31-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_12_08&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_46a1943223-e9d16a0b31-40431265
  • Kirrilie about 2 years ago
    I understand why SAPN want to limit export to 5kW per house. But beyond bringing in a rule that states that export must not exceed 5kW, I don't understand why anything else is required. I think I (and any resident) should be able to have any number of panels, with any size inverter and any size battery (with its own inverter if required) - as long as the export to the grid is limited to 5kW. I'm pretty sure there is a function within inverters these days to clip the energy exported to the grid to a set amount, that doesn't cost a few hundred dollars as suggested in the 3rd solution above. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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    • Admin Commented Talking Power about 2 years ago
      Hi Kirrilie, thanks for your comment. You are correct that many modern inverters have an export limiting function, and this can allow more panels, inverters and even a battery to be installed without breaching export limitations. However, this configuration requires an extra meter to be installed in the meter box to measure how much power is being imported or exported by the household. This extra meter and the work to install it can add a few hundred dollars to the customer's solar system costs. Regards - the Talking Power team
    • paulandrew about 2 years ago
      I'm not an expert but have heard about the inverter limiting exports and I know that Fronius do this. you could have an 8kW inverter with say 10kW of panels and set the inverter to limit exports to 5kW. this encourages more personal local energy production and use and more reliable output without too much of a voltage problem on the local network
  • paulandrew about 2 years ago
    from the options, option 3 seems to be the best option but with some of option 2 mixed in smartly. the problem is more the ad-hoc blanket rules. if 1 or more areas are experiencing a problem of over voltage and others under voltage then the same solutions and rules shouldn't be applied. there needs to be some guideline rules for all with restrictions in certain areas if there's problems until the investment in an upgrade might make more sense, and then lift the restrictions. this could be done with a blanket max export of say 10kVA per phase for all of state and then lower limits in certain areas.the investment in network assets could be justified if say 100 users wanted to export more but not if only 10 did. harder to manage but we need to be thinking and using energy smarter
  • Davidcoen about 2 years ago
    this is a limited view only looking at the power network or self protection 1 . Insulation scheme - make homes warmer in winter and colder in summer by control of air exchange - give grants for work and this will do two things reduce usage and increase home values 2. BER - Ratings A building energy rating is a rating on the overall energy efficiency of a building (residential or commercial). The rating is similar to the energy label on your fridge and is denoted on scale of A to G, with A1 being the most energy efficient and G being the least energy efficient. BER Certificate. example https://www.seai.ie/energy-ratings/building-energy-rating-ber/ 3. this is only a topic as prices are so large thus the cost to change makes it worth while yet when you have the energy it still goes out the windows and doors as homes in Australia dont have a building rating which would also control value The market is currently running the solar boom and a limit of 5KWH can be overcome by a 3 phase connection which is cheap to get done. Stop just looking at South Australia as you wont get the answer engage an expert in building and energy just like me who has no vested interest in Australia as i am an international guest
  • Richard W OTH about 2 years ago
    I think the solutions are wider than the above.I believe we need to head towards much more storage that is flexible and includes long term storage so that we can use all the generation that occurs.Eg hydrogen production and storage is just one example - or can we run the desal plant on this surplus power?There is the whole need to look at distributed power generation with relatively "thin" networks connecting them. We need to be able to re-imagine the whole system. Power networks may have a rather different role. They may actually need to carry less power as more is generated and used locally. This could reduce the overall cost of the networks.Certainly I believe it essential that all solar systems can export and share energy. No 1 is nonsense.I believe the cost in no 2 is being overstated. As we shift away from carbon based power - and we must for our children and grandchildren - storage will become a part of the whole process. Some of this will be in homes for self use or as needed in the network eg Reposit et al. As transport shifts to renewable energy too - and it must then storage will be created connected to that.The whole system needs to be encouraging storage. People with solar systems should receive some assistance in storing energy especially if they are then providing it when the network needs it - because then THEY are saving on the costs of upgrading the network.
  • astenhou about 2 years ago
    Perhaps these aren't the only possible solutions? Perhaps a more community-connected solution is possible, eg. requiring some local energy storage in each block or area? So the whole community becomes more resilient. This could come under #2 or could just be regulations that require local communities to communicate and work together, which would have other co-benefits. Also incorrect to think that large power stations are "controllable" at will and at speed. Distributed generation is going to be way more resilient.Don't forget nega-watts - i.e. educating consumers on energy saving and efficiency measures.
  • BRUCE HOCKLEY about 2 years ago
    #3 SEEMS THE BETTER ALTERNATIVE IN TODAY'S MARKET. In conjunction with batteries installed in homes. However reading the other comments its seems the problem is with the panels/ battery combination disconnecting at certain times of the day.Perhaps more research is needed in conjunction with better monitoring of the power being produced. Batteries are out of most peoples reach due to the high cost, so as i dont have any my self im relying on comments posted.I think their has been a big rush on batteries without more research being done on the disconnection problem.
  • RGML about 2 years ago
    Of these 3 rather inadequate options #3 would probably be the most sensible. The future is undoubtably going to include home PV, Home battery storage and electric vehicle battery storage. The integration of those three will be vital to the success of our future grid. The long term plan must include better communication so the various sources of electricity can be adequately coordinated - rather than being a direct fee it may be more sensible to have companies like Reposit who have already developed the technology, and just gone live (today) in the ACT. PS I can’t believe this site has had so little publicity and engagement, is there any chance the closing date can be extended?
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    • Admin Commented Talking Power about 2 years ago
      Thanks for your comments RGML - we are happy to keep the engagement open for an additional week. Feel free to share information with friends and colleagues so they can get involved too! Regards - the Talking Power team.
  • shazzm over 2 years ago
    > if exports get too high it can put the overall reliability of the power system at risk. Question: What's the problem with exports being too high exactly? Customers are getting the benefits from exporting and if we can store solar that we generate ourselves, that is the ideal solution - to get off the grid. I am sure I don't understand enough about this whole thing but here is my two cents:I think the ultimate long-term goal should be to have all residential and commercial facilities generating (and operating from) their own battery-stored solar energy. If this were to happen, then this would be a moot point. As to point 1: not allowing export from new installations: Essentially this means that getting solar on your roof is worthless as most people are not home to use solar at the time in which it is most beneficial. e.g. not home during the day to use the energy you generate from your system. Definitely not in favour of this one unless you replace this with a heavily subsidized system that allows us to cheaply purchase storage batteries for our own properties.
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    • Admin Commented Talking Power over 2 years ago
      Hi Shazzm, thanks for your comments. We agree that it is good for customers to have solar and batteries – and to be self-sufficient using solar power which has been stored in their batteries. However, when too many customers export too much electricity into the network at the same time this can cause quality of supply issues (in particular voltage problems) which will negatively impact customers in the surrounding area. Some infrastructure upgrades, requiring additional investment, would be required to manage this, as referenced in option 2 of our forum question. Please let us know if you would like further information on this. Regards - the Talking Power team
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      • shazzm over 2 years ago
        ok, now I understand. If many people are generating more electricity than the existing system can handle then things could blow up. Yep. makes sense. When you say it that way, i think it's quite obvious from the stats in SA that pretty much the whole state will go solar when they can afford it so, the infrastructure has to be upgraded to cope with that. However, instead of spending money on infrastructure upgrades, how about spending that upgrade money on either subsidising or giving batteries to households so the spike will not happen.....
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        • Admin Commented Talking Power over 2 years ago
          Things wont actually 'blow up' (no need to panic!) but it could cause voltage issues for the surrounding area. We are currently exploring your battery suggesting in our 'Salisbury Trial'. The trial is exploring how residential solar and batteries might be an alternative to investing in a network upgrade in Adelaide, as well as providing insights into the network impacts of large-scale deployment of residential batteries. 100 customers in Salisbury received battery storage systems at a discounted price in exchange for providing SA Power Networks the ability to utilise the batteries on peak demand days for network support. Salisbury trial customers have enjoyed reduced bills and backup power, while we have deferred a $2.9M upgrade. Regards - the Talking Power team.
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          • brettrob about 2 years ago
            Adding Batteries will not fix the problem of high voltage.I currently have batteries that do not fully charge on sunny days because the voltage is too high from the grid from about 10 to 4 daily because the grid is out of Australian Standard AS4777.1. and the batteries disconnect from the grid which increases the voltage to rise even more. Apparently, it is my fault the voltage is high (even at night but within the standard) and SAPN will do nothing to fix it.So just adding batteries will do nothing unless the grid is stable first.Adding solar in many cases adds to the stability of the grid but SAPN needs to control which areas/properties can help the grid and not just approve all applications of up to 10kws. I think SANP are changing this to 5kws.Different streets need different rules.There is not and will not be a problem of too much power as when this occurs the price will drop and companies will turn on big power using machines etc and others will fill their batteries for later use and retailer will reduce the feed-in tariff in the mid of the day. It could be a good idea to move the off-peak hot water to a more flexible smart controlled time too to use any cheap power instead of peaking at night time.We need smart meters with smart pricing. It is very silly that I can charge my car or turn on the clothes dryer with no consideration of the wholesale price of power (Demand management)
          • brettrob about 2 years ago
            I have batteries and if the voltage is too high the batteries disconnect from the grid and do not chargeApprove rooftop solar on a property by property basis.Need smart meters with smart pricing. Demand management. Off-peak hot water when power is cheap.
  • jdavy over 2 years ago
    Increasingly the cost of poles and wires will have to be met by less people and the cost of power to those without solar may become prohibitive. I find this particularly problematic because I do not have suitable roof space to install solar. Perhaps the best solution is to promote smaller community networks where generation, storage and sales are managed within the community
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    • Kentim01 over 2 years ago
      I agree- we can’t put solar panels on, but would be prepared to install batteries if there was a community option & a payback period of, say, 7 yrs.
    • Admin Commented Talking Power over 2 years ago
      Thanks for your comments JDavey and Kentim01. They are consistent with discussions we are having in various consultative forums with stakeholders regarding how we can ensure fairness as more people invest in solar and other technologies. We are also considering how community schemes might be supported to enable customers to share their resources with others. Regards - the Talking Power team.
  • Subby over 2 years ago
    I think the problem will be not that there is too much solar, that could be an issue more short term. If the the feed in rate or even option to do so is removed, then more and more will take up storage options, meaning they take less and less from the grid. Sounds good, but then those who cannot have solar, for whatever reason, or are large uses of power will pay more and more in network and supply charges, as there will be more and more using less and less, yet the network costs will only keep going up.imahime new how much money comes in from a street of 20 homes. What happens when there is only 1 home at the end of the street connected, will they want to pay 20 times what they are now?
  • Kelshy over 2 years ago
    It's obvious that decentralisation of power generation is a good thing for the power network, (I hesitate to call it a grid for a reason), instead of throwing away generated electricity how about storage options - and no not batteries - something bigger like pumped hydro. That would even out the bumps in oversupply and high demand periods (summers). One on EP, one in the upper Spencer gulf, one in the Adelaide Hills somewhere and one in the southeast.
  • Kraut over 2 years ago
    A combination control (option 3) Export limitation, while offering incentives for storage and stored power when it’s needed. Something like Reposit. I think this could be the saving grace of the grid and ultimately save the death spiral from killing off the grid. There’s some good info about how it works here:https://energysa.net.au/energy-solutions/solar/storage/reposit/
  • Gully over 2 years ago
    For SAPN to remain innthe market as the provider they need to adapt and change to new and emerging technologies by staying in the forefront. This is why SAPN should adopt option 2 and keep building the network to keep the customers happy, keep the lineman working and improving their skills and keep SAPN as a profitable business. I have no doubt that the cost of padmount and pole top transformers with low voltage regulators and/or low voltage capacitor banks would outweigh the cost of loosing customers who are constantly going off grid or with new supplys never connecting, its a no brainer for the customers when the cost to connect to the grid (with poles and transformers to be installed) costs more than a solar system with batteries and gas generated back up. But im sure the company has cosidered this already
  • duststorm over 2 years ago
    There are more opportunities than challenges. All electricity generated locally is not affected by large transmission losses and can be used by electricity retailers. It is up to the retailer to find a way to manage to provide for storage (pumped hydro, compressed air, batteries etc.). Option 1 is totally unacceptable as it provides an easy survival mode for outdated fossil fuel technologies and has to be regarded as environmental vandalism. Most of the new solar power generated is sold into the grid for as little as 6 cents and sold on for close to 40 cents. Smart meters make a lot of sense as we do not need to have dishwashers, washing machines etc. to run during peak demand times. None of 3 so-called solutions are smart or in the public interest.
  • blackcat64013 over 2 years ago
    We need to have new builds install solar connectivity to keep the prices down and make them more affordable.Secondly, in rental agreements, how about landlords or their representatives including information about how a tenant can take advantage of the solar rebates or at least how they work. I have anecdotal evidence this information was not provided and a tenant ended up with a much larger bill than anticipated.
  • Kentim01 over 2 years ago
    I prefer option 3, as it seems to be closest to the ideal option where consumers exporting to the grid could get paid in line with the wholesale price of power. This would make battery storage more economical for new solar customers, which if managed properly can will share the benefits amongst the whole community (lower power prices by reducing the peak wholesale rate) rather than just pushing up the price for non-solar owners.
  • Jay9 over 2 years ago
    Solution 1 appears to be a negative investment for new solar customers.Solution 2 to improve the network makes sense as the network is many years old, provided the network is improved so as to meet the changing technologies of the future. Every good business improves their processes and procedures and equipment to keep pace with market demand or ceases to operate. The customer should not be paying for business improvement.Solution 3 seems to be a negative investment for new customers.The best solution would be a win win situation for electricity customers and the network.To encourage the storage of electricity for use when sustainable production of electricity is low.Therefore solution 2 needs to incorporate storage of electricity from sustainable production, battery technology needs to be developed and improved to enable the running of normal household appliances.My thoughts are a combination of individual production (rooftop solar panels) and storage (battery) in conjunction with the network supply and storage, to meet the electricity usage demands throughout the State.
  • Beno08 over 2 years ago
    Solution 1 is a waste of a renewable resource, storing that excess power may cost on the initial purchase of battery's but surely having that excess solar stored at a low cost must be better than creating power with gas.Solution 2 is the best but it doesn't make sense as to why it would cost customers more on their bills as spending money on the grid and having more storage will be better money spent than more power stations, we are already overpaying for our electricity now so there must be enough money to fund this.Solution 3 may be a good alternative to solution 2 if it actually worksMy solution is to get the government involved in another subsidised scheme like the solar rebate but with battery storage at home instead and have all future solar installations to be battery ready inverters as we had no idea that most do not work with battery's until it was installed, also it takes way to long to change the digital meter to work with solar, so far it's been close to a month and still atleast another 2 weeks wait, this whole setup with the retailer/ sa power networks and the national metering database is a mess
  • cnettle over 2 years ago
    New domestic power generation and storage installations should be equipped with smart network communication and control. In normal mode a domestic user would aim to import more power when the spot price is cheapest and would aim to export more power when the spot price is highest. In override mode the electricity authority would have the power to seize control of both supply and demand but have to pay the consumer for doing so.